Curse

runeseeker1 · Aug 02, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Destroy all gold. Bartering FTW.

Or do what Zinger said. Marxism FTW.

TabascoSauce · Aug 02, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

No, I am stating that fairness can be enforced absolutely in a virtual world.

Nice to know that ANet sells PvP unlock packs to people who can afford it. Now that is the model of fair, isnt it? They have acknowledged that money = time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

meaningless rhetoric about how skill is more important than time

Rubbish. This game is not skill-based at all - oh I'm sorry, we can literally capture skill and condense it into a wiki, right? That is why we have all the basketballl and football wikis to help the NBA and NFL. Dood, perfect example direct from the wiki: "Since many enemies and Varesh herself deal ranged piercing-type damage, "Shields Up!" will greatly reduce the damage party takes." I can state that even the substandard AI for heroes uses this skill and makes the mission almost unlosable. Including one "skill" from the game. That does not constitute player skill to me.

Reading comprehension is more important than skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

No, I am stating that fairness can be enforced absolutely in a virtual world.

Uh huh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

What's wrong with letting people who achieve things have something to show for their accomplishments? Who cares if they grinded for it, or got a single lucky drop, or played the market, or whatever?

Are you confusing titles in with this? Uh, no. As it is, the game makes you grind to unlock skills. Being that there are over 1100 skills in the game total, then counting out freebie quest rewards or hero points, you have 700+ skills that max out quickly to a plat each! So what, I can grind if I have the time, or simply pay ANet and unlock them all?

I want economic fairness, and you can keep your silly meaningless titles.

Thanks!
tabascoSauce

lyra_song · Aug 02, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by runeseeker1

Destroy all gold. Bartering FTW.

Or do what Zinger said. Marxism FTW.

People have a bartering system now. Ectos.

A bartering system can be ebayed because anything that can be trade can become currency.

A system without any sort of trading...would be....boring.

Not to mention it would create people selling whole ACCOUNTS instead.

Kakumei · Aug 02, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Rubbish. This game is not skill-based at all - oh I'm sorry, we can literally capture skill and condense it into a wiki, right?

I'm evidently using a broader definition of 'skill' than you are. Skill can also be used to describe how quickly people can pick up playing the market, or perfecting that farming run, or similar things that many people might not consider 'skillful' or difficult.

Also, I never stated that skill was more important than time--merely that it is also a factor, one you did not even mention.

Quote:

Uh huh.

Can be enforced. I'm not saying it currently is, merely that it is certainly possible, unlike in real life.

Quote:

Are you confusing titles in with this?

Titles do partially enter into this, but no, I did not have them in mind.

Quote:

Uh, no. As it is, the game makes you grind to unlock skills.

Or you can play (and succeed) in PvP and unlock them that way--which, while still a grind, to be sure, is vastly based more on traditional skill than a hundred griffon runs.

Knight_Blazer · Aug 02, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

For someone who works (which should be everyone, because it's summer), paying 22.5$(3 hours of work at minimum wage?) to get 500k is way better than farming for 3 hours and get what, 100k if you do it right? (most people don't know how to make 100k in a week). Farming isn't fun either. So buying is more time efficient. I don't have a problem with how many hours people waste playing the game, doing missions or pvp'ing, but farming (which is the best way to get money, besides powertrading but it's a lot harder) is just a more inefficient way to get gold if you have a job.

Molock · Aug 02, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

How is it fair that I farm for hours to buy nice weapons and armor and you simply go online and purchase gold and get the items...?

Its like those idiots that buy FoW and very rare weapons with ebay gold and then start showing off as if they earned it.

Anyway, Anet doesn't want people making money off their game and it is unfair for honest players, unlike you.. Oh yea, don't buy anymore gold.. you are just encouraging bots.

Knight_Blazer · Aug 02, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Yea it's definitely unfair, my post was just directed to those who find it stupid to pay real life cash for virtual items. It IS effective compared to the time you would spend to farm to get only a fraction of the gold you would if you bought it instead. And I don't buy gold anyway, since NF came out and flagging henches away from bosses was possible money was not a probelm.

henry · Aug 02, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Buying online gold with actual currency for use in GW is necessary only for aesthetic enhancements. That's all. Period.

I've appreciated the steps that the Guild Wars development team has taken to make GW gameplay a meritocracy. It's the main reason I play GW over any other RPG - one of my major frustrations with Diablo II (my other exposure to and RPG) was that individuals with particular high-end armors/weapons had an advantage in PvE and PvP gameplay than those who did not possess those items. Some arguement could be made that Sunspear/Lightbringer/Faction titles enhance gameplay, but at least those require time investment in the game.

You know what would be funny, though? An in-game credit agent. Need 100k for elite armor? Borrow it from the Xunlai Credit Agent. The sticking point? You have to pay the 100k back (with interest) in a certain period of time, or the Xunlai Collection Agents come and take ALL your stuff.

Mordakai · Aug 02, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molock

How is it fair that I farm for hours to buy nice weapons and armor and you simply go online and purchase gold and get the items...?

How is it fair that you have time to farm for hours on end and I don't?

Anet: End this silly discussion once and for all. Sell gold directly to people online.

You make money, working people get their stuff, and people who have time to farm pay less. Seems pretty fair to me.

DirtyDirty · Aug 02, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Even after 2 months I'm still not grasping how a person could spend real money on virtual money that isn't real. The gold in Guild Wars is not real gold. Wouldn't it be smarter to spend money on actual gold than virtual gold?

Chthon · Aug 02, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Entreri

Gold can be sold for real world cash right now. However, I don't see rampant crippling inflation in the in-game economy

Since there have been bots and gold farmers since the beginning, we have no basis of comparison. With no basis of comparison, how can you claim that there is or is not inflation? All we can do is look to what happens to other games with similar economic structures, and look at what happens when a-net changes the economic structure, and make educated about what things would look like without that incentive to farm massive amounts of gold.

Quote:

and I don't buy gold yet don't feel forced out of the economy entirely.

And all your warriors/warrior heroes are running around with elemental swords, and all your rangers/ranger heroes are running around with 15^50 storm bows, and all your casters/casters heroes are running around with tormented staves, etc? While, thankfully, a-net has made sure that such things are vanity items, the fact remains that you can't afford them. Maybe your buying power (no doubt bolstered by more-hardcore-than-average playing and a year or two of saving up gold) may not be confined to buying upgrades to slap on collectors items, however it does not put you on par with the gold-buyers who can afford that stuff either. And, if the money supply were to further increase in proportion to the item supply, you would surely find your buying power dropping.

I might add that botters/third-world farmers are not the only force at work in the GW economy. The other major unbalancing force is a deflationary one - the cap on character slots functions as a cap on inventory. Once people reach the point where their inventories are so full that buying a new item means throwing away an old item that they were satisfied with, their demand for items to put in their inventory falls to near zero. The character slot limit is GW's "original sin" and I hardly expect that to change now. You might say that an inflationary force is needed to keep the character slot limit from deflating the economy to nothingness. In fact, I'd probably agree with you. But botting/third-world farming/official gold-selling is NOT a good form for that inflationary force to take.

Quote:

Changes by Anet have actually reversed some of these trends... things like ectos cost less now.

That's right. Now let's look at those changes a little more closely. The price of ectos started to fall following the implementation of loot scaling. And what did loot scaling do? It reduced the money supply by reducing the availability of vendor-trash white items that bots and third-world farmers convert into gold. Something they did to fight the bots/third-world farmers actually worked and actually lowered inflation. It makes no sense at all to now turn around and do the opposite.

TabascoSauce · Aug 02, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Good post Chthon. I'd like to nuance your post though - if the money supply were to further increase in proportion to the item supply, you would surely find your buying power dropping specifically for the player to player economy and the items within it.

If the money supply were to expand, the buying power for static cost items such as skills or armors would increase.

I see a lot of players who are totally focused on the player to player economy, but they are not paying attention to the silent majority - people like me who have little or no interest in FoW or irridescent anything, we just want easier access to the basics - such as skills, 1.5K armors, +1 runes for heroes, on and on. All this, per character slot comes up to a lot of money.

I got Prophecies on launch day, and have been playing off and on since, and I have not gotten all the basics for all my characters. Money would go a long way to fixing that, but as I said earlier it is not important enough to me to pay actual cash for.

What I am seeing here is a lot of acrimony and gnashing of teeth for bots and the players who buy gold. Making things naughty has never worked, see prohibition, and for the umpteenth time there is no criminal law anywhere in the world that you can be charged with for buying gold - you are breaking a contractual business agreement with ANet and they can deny you service, nothing less, nothing more. That is their right, and they reserve it in print.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Mordakai · Aug 02, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDirty

Even after 2 months I'm still not grasping how a person could spend real money on virtual money that isn't real. The gold in Guild Wars is not real gold. Wouldn't it be smarter to spend money on actual gold than virtual gold?

By the same token, how do you justify the time you "waste" playing the game?

Couldn't you be making money instead?

The answer is, of course, you play the game because (hopefully) you enjoy it.

I wish I could play the game more... but, alas, having a full time job and children means I have bigger priorities.

As a result, I have more money than free time. Therefore, for me at least, it makes since to spend my money on things I enjoy. In this case, I would spend more money if Anet offered more things for me to buy.

Snow Bunny · Aug 02, 2007, 08:13 PM // 20:13

To allow purchases of gold would be to allow those with disposable income an advantage over those who don't.
The value of gold would lessen to the point where players who have a difficult time with gold already would be forced to purchase gold to "keep up with the joneses" because gold would be worth so little because of 11 year olds with weekly allowances blowing off their cash on in-game gold.

lakatz · Aug 02, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Second Life is a game that is very much about commerce, has a strong economy and is owned by Linden Labs. Linden Labs sells the currency (L$) that is used in the game. On their index page, they have a link to buy and sell L$. And they show a daily tally of how much money has been spent in the game. At the moment of this post, the 24 hour total is US$1,160,974. That's over one million dollars spent in one day in a game.

That would be a good company to work for if they have profit sharing.

ChyldeOfTheLotus · Aug 02, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

What if ANet decided to sell gold, but put a limit on how much gold a person can buy per week? 100k a week might not be a lot for the pro farmers, but it's a lot to the casual players.

lyra_song · Aug 02, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakatz

Second Life is a game that is very much about commerce, has a strong economy and is owned by Linden Labs. Linden Labs sells the currency (L$) that is used in the game. On their index page, they have a link to buy and sell L$. And they show a daily tally of how much money has been spent in the game. At the moment of this post, the 24 hour total is US$1,160,974. That's over one million dollars spent in one day in a game.

That would be a good company to work for if they have profit sharing.

Second life isnt a game.....

And second life allows you to sell YOUR content. Content that YOU programmed,modeled/textured/animated, etc.

This is significantly different from Guild Wars and MMORPGs in general.

Age · Aug 02, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

The question is what do ppl use with gold and yes there are your basics that you need.Then you have eventually wanting Vanity items 15K armour and good greens and golds.The thing is you don't need to sell gold online just produce more of it in game make the drops bigger to directly compete with the gold sellers.Then get rid of some of the gold sinks like 100 gold fee to invite to invite someone into your guild and some others.

They could make the total cost of 15K armour just that all 5 pieces costing 15K not just 1 piece as with 1K armour are at 5K for 1 set.That would mean all you need for 1 set of 15K is mats and 15K.When done this way the average casual gamer can then afford to save for 1 set of 15K.Anet doesn't need to sell gold online just put more of it in game and it won't ruin the economy and to heck with bots.

lakatz · Aug 02, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Second life isnt a game.....

And second life allows you to sell YOUR content. Content that YOU programmed,modeled/textured/animated, etc.

This is significantly different from Guild Wars and MMORPGs in general.

Hi Lyra...

I agree with you. IMO, SL is not a game, but the argument still rages on. In fact, the wikipedia entry on Second Life mentions the 'dispute' and concludes that it is a game on a 'basic level'.

But whether I agree with that or not is immaterial. That people do is reason enough for me to concede and go ahead and use the term... on a basic level... I don't have a strong need to be right... ya know what I mean?

And whether it's a game or not is immaterial to my point. I just mentioned it to show that online commerce can be very lucrative for the owner of the... of the... of the... whatever you want to call the 3D app that incorporates commerce.

And GW obviously incorporates commerce or there wouldn't be gold in the game and the OP wouldn't have started this discussion about the gold.

Shakti · Aug 02, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

The question is what do ppl use with gold and yes there are your basics that you need.Then you have eventually wanting Vanity items 15K armour and good greens and golds.The thing is you don't need to sell gold online just produce more of it in game make the drops bigger to directly compete with the gold sellers.Then get rid of some of the gold sinks like 100 gold fee to invite to invite someone into your guild and some others.

They could make the total cost of 15K armour just that all 5 pieces costing 15K not just 1 piece as with 1K armour are at 5K for 1 set.That would mean all you need for 1 set of 15K is mats and 15K.When done this way the average casual gamer can then afford to save for 1 set of 15K.Anet doesn't need to sell gold online just put more of it in game and it won't ruin the economy and to heck with bots.

...deleting the point of it being 15k armor. At that point you could pretty much just buy the basic. The only difference is looks anyway.

You do not "need" the 15k armor/epeen weapon. You want it. The EULA has been the same on this since Proph came out. Gold can not be bought or sold for RL cash. If you violate it Anet can ban you. If you're playing, you clicked the I Agree button when you started. If you didn't read it, well, that's too bad really, you're bound to it anyway. Buy or sell gold, you're banned.

Personally, I disagree completely with buying gold. I have been playing since first release. I "worked" hard to learn how the market works, how to farm back in the day etc, and earned my 15k sets, weapons fow etc. Point is, you do NOT need big gold to play just fine. You can use basic armor, collector stuff and guess what? heros do FINE without runes and insignias lol I've completed nf with 7 chars whose heros had nothin' but 1 major rune a piece (100g lol) and they were NO harder than the chars who did. We need gold sinks for those with tons of cash, NOT EVERY PLAYER. Every person does not "need" or "deserve" fow etc any more than every person on Earth needs and deserves a luxury sportscar.